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06/25/2005 Archived Entry: "Mexiberia"

Have you ever had an impression of “déjà vu”? I did, no later than a few days ago, while enjoying a 10-day stay in Spain. What I saw was strangely familiar, like a morphing of Mexico into what the country (...)

The competing cultural influences in Mexico are a fascinating subject of analysis. Which of the American onslaught of movies and consumer products, the dwindling glory of the Aztec empire or the dubious legacy of the conquistadores will be prevalent to shape the future of the nation?

Relics of the Ibero-Catholic rule stand out, the Miguelete tower in Valencia’s old town finding its counter point in the architecture of the Santa Prisca cathedral in Taxco, the catholic faith echoing across the Atlantic and the Spanish language sounding from the suburbs of Madrid to the Cervantino festival in Guanajuato.

Beyond this age-old cultural foundation lies the modern Latin pop culture with its distinctive rhythms, fashion style, food flavors that have had such success around the globe with celebrity icons like Shakira or Penelope Cruz. Granted, in Valencia you will eat a “bocadillo” instead of a “taco” before going clubbing, but thereafter you’ll observe the same glitter on the clothing worn by girls vigorously shaking themselves on the dance floor under the beat of a remix of “La Tortura”.

Perhaps the flow of cultural influence has been reversed in the 20th century and now Latin America, including Mexico, is the powerhouse of the “movida Latina”? Or are we witnessing the emergence of a global movement in the era of exacerbated regionalisms (just mention the use of Catalan in Barcelona and watch the numerous reactions of your hosts in Madrid)?

With hundreds of thousands of more or less legal immigrants from Colombia and Ecuador living in Spain, the sons and daughters of the conquistadores are learning to live together with the descendants of their former colonies. My impression is that the Mexican emigration to Spain has been rather less important than the influx of Spaniards in Mexico, for example during and after the Spanish Civil War. The cultural weight of Mexico is phenomenally higher in the USA than in Spain, proof that geographical proximity plays a stronger role than a common history bathed in blood, religion and vast amounts of silver.

Besides these obvious facets of both cultures, I sense many common traits in the business attitudes in Mexico and Spain. The same reliance on personal trust, animated and often vocal meetings, approximate organization and planning, etc. A Spanish businessman coming to Mexico is on a much more familiar ground than his American counter-part looking to expand south of the border.

However, where I felt more deeply than ever the link between Spain and Mexico was during a long train journey from Madrid to Murcia, the steel tracks cutting across an increasingly dry, desolate and poor backcountry. The riches of Madrid or Barcelona cannot hide the fact that Spain remains a largely agricultural country with some of the poorest regions in Europe. Contemplating the ruins of a modest family house near Murcia, surrounded by an arid land, I felt the long arm of Mexico reaching back to hug me.

Regarding Latin American immigration in Spain this page from the EIRO will provide us with some hard facts:

- Ecuadorians are the largest non-EU immigrant community, with 390000 persons, followed in third place by Colombians with 244000 individuals. No statistically significant sign of Mexicans.

- 38.7% of these immigrants are unskilled workers. The largest proportion of men work in agriculture and construction, while women find jobs in hotels, catering and domestic work.

According to a couple of sources, there are around 300000 prostitutes in Spain, the vast majority (~90%) of them immigrants. Although Latin America was the foremost supplier of prostitutes in the past, now the country is dealing with intense trafficking of women from Romania and Nigeria.

My humble belief is that poverty and lack of education lead to despair, a fertile ground for exploiters to take advantage, sexually or not, of people. In the case of Spain, statistics tend to prove that both Colombians and Ecuadorians ended up massively as unskilled laborers or in the worst situations, fell into prostitution.

I can't help but wonder how this compares with the situation of Mexicans in the USA. I suspect that a parallel could easily be drawn.

Posted by Satanarchist @ 07/05/2005 03:21 PM MEX

This post by Serge has certainly taken us to ponder such different things.

Satanarchis is right in many ways, and Argentina is a great and very complex society. It is true that Argentinians hail from various European backgrounds, however, they also seem to view this as making them "have little in common with" (i.e. feel superior to)the rest of Latin America. They seem to have the notion that just by the fact that they are 90% Euro descendents that they are some sort of geographically displaced European country! Other countries in Latin America may not have the same percentages, but all Brazil, Cuba, Costa Rica and Uruguay have white European majorities, and still they feel (and act, and become corrupted just like) typical Latin Americans. The issue with Argentina is that it is possibly (and secretly) one of the most Latin American of countries (its general culture, politics, corruption, military, tastes for musicm TV and cinema, tax system, beliefs, etc, etc) with just a semi-European (and mostly pretentious) facade. Argentina needs to accept its "Latin Americanness" which it secretly and and very much embraces, but which forsakes in public.

Posted by L'ombre d'un vague @ 07/03/2005 08:39 PM MEX

I am argentinian and wanted to state that historically Argentina has very little in common with the rest of South America. The inmense majority of people here are european descendents and Buenos Aires definitively looks like an european city. Some parts may remind one to Paris, Rome, Madrid, etc.
We are not 100% spanish descendents, but yes, mainly we come from Spain. In second place we are italians and then french, english, russian, polish, german, etc etc.
But now, of course, it´s like the USA, people from other south american countries have been coming to Argentina the last decades, of course in huge numbers and have been enlarging their communities a lot. So now it´s not so accurate to state that we are 100% european descendents.
It´s a pity corruption has taken this beautiful country down, it could have been way more prosperous than many european countries..... if only the englih had landed here first! haha
I don´t know, colonization still existis, with spanish companies owning our phones, waters, electricity, trains, etc etc.

Posted by Satanarchist @ 07/03/2005 01:40 PM MEX

Juliana:

That is very interesting, and I can see where the Cubans are coming from. They have practically built a society of their own and nopt so long ago almost succeeded in a referendum in making Spanish the only official language of Florida. (As we know, none of the states in the USA or the USA on a federal level have any "official" languages...yet. There are groups that are working hard to make English the official language www.englisfirst.org)

I will find that sruvey from Spain. In the mean time, I think that a cool link to look at is the Organization of Iberoamerican States website. www.oei.es. Iberoamerica is a fascinating topic. Did you know that besides Spain, Portugal and Latin America, "Iberoamerica" includes Equatorial Guinea in Africa? It's the only country in Africa where the majority of the population speak Spanish as their first language.

I am surprised however that Iberoamerica does not officially include The Philippines. In fact, The Philippines is the only Hispanic country where the vast majority of people do not speak Spanish as their first language (only about 500,000 still do, and many others speak Chabacano, a dialect of Spanish), yet, the number of Spanish speakers there is significant enough, and the culture is totally Hispanic for Las Filipinas to be part of Iberoamerica. The Philippines were actually an integral part of Mexico, politically for centuries, because under Spanish colonial rule they were an integral part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain (which was Mexico) and the capital of the Philippines was Mexico City. Mexico's viceroy Legazpi later went on to be governor in Manila, and the main river there received his name, transliterated as El Pasig.

Tagalog, which is 35% Spanish has many words that are unique to Mexico otherwise. (such as mamey, chamaco, petate, etc, and which are of Aztec origin). The Manila galleon travelled from Acapulco to Manila and back for 300 years. The Philippines had Spanish as its official language as recently as Corazon Aquino, who abolished it. Anyway, I don't meen to stary from the subject, but I just think it's unfair that a Hispanic country is not considered Hispanic or "Iberian" just because it doesn't speak Spanish anymore, when its culture is fully Hispanic otherwise.

In a similar corollary, Juliana talks about how people view themselves. How can Hispanic or Black people in the US feel American when a widely used term in the USA "The All-American boy" or "The All-American Girl" is a term that literally means someone who is very blond and has blue eyes?

I also love the fact that your post is sponsored by putasalrojo.com! There is a Mexican song from the 1600s "Un Sarao de la Chacona" of the "Chacona genre", (which originated in Italy but really became popular in Mexico and then passed on to the motherland Spain and to France, where it became "La Chaconne") which in obe of its stanzas say: "Salieron cuatro domingos, con veinte lunes a cuestas, y cargo con estas cestas, un asno dando respingos, Juana contingo los mingos, salio las bragas enjutas, y las de cuarenta putas, hyendo de Barcelona, y la fama lo pregona"

Apparently in the 1600s it was the prostitutes whi were running from Spain to Mexico, in the opposite direction as now.

And finally, let's meditate on the fact that we are ALL prostitutes, one way or another!

Posted by L'ombre d'une vague @ 06/30/2005 04:06 PM MEX

I am interested in knowing about that research! It reminds me of a research I read a year ago about who felt most american 'the white population, black population, latin population (the variable for this was cubans in miami...)' White population felt the most americans, followed by the african-americans, while the latins/cubans funnily felt the least american (if american at all), yet living happier and in better conditions that the black population that participated in the research...

It is definitively a hot topic. I can look for the reserach if someone is interested.

J

Posted by Juliana @ 06/29/2005 07:44 PM MEX

Serge:

You are right. There is a parallel with Mexican immigrants in the USA. In fact, the situation of most Mexicans in the USA is almost identical as to that of most Ecuadorians and Colombians in Spain.

I agree with Juliana's comments and her invitation to keep focused. I fully agree. We all recat with our own experiences to Serge's hard facts. This is what unlocks the wisdom and knowledge embedded in Serge's observations.

Carolina, what I said is that Mexicans refer to Americans as gabachos, just like Spaniards refer to the French, and like Juliana said I was explaining the point of view of the Spanish people regarding immigrants.

Last August there was a countrywide poll in Spain regarding their views of Latin Americans and which Latin American countries they felt resembled Spain the most. I don't have the exact link, but Argentina came #1 and Cuba #2 as "most similar to Spain" and Peru, Colombia and Ecuador as "Least similar". I will look for the survey data if anyone is interested.

Posted by L'ombre d'une vague @ 06/29/2005 04:42 PM MEX

L'Ombre d'une vague,

The only thing I can conclude from this post is that we only see and experience a fragment of the abstract that we call reality. As you have seen, since the beginning this blog talks about facts, from Serge's point of view. Whatever topic he is interested in, he writes about and from that moment on it's up to the readers to digest the information, like it or not.

Your comment came to be a reaction and factual post of your experience, and afterwards my comment was a reaction to yours. People get offended, but let's get real... who doesn't? This time it was me. I can't deal with it, and i cannnot do anything about it. It is a 'reality' I ignored, and now with the new statistics added to the original post, it is 'what I want to believe' against what it truly 'is'...

I was so frustrated, that while talking with a friend about it, he told me that he felt horrible when, while visiting Cuba a mother offered her 12-year-old daughter to him for $1 dollar. It happened in a park, at the middle of the day, exactly when he rejected the mother herself. (Obviously, he rejected the daugher too - or so I wan't to believe).

So, in the end and thanks to the blog technology, this site is a place to speak about things, specially those that calls Serge's attention. That's life, you know? You just said what you felt was correct to be said. Let's live with it.

Regarding Carolina's comment, I lived through the same experiences, so to speak. And even in the same situation you see both sides of the coin - the people that are 'lucky' enough to learn english and become more competent, and the ones who get comfortable without the english, in their latin communities and stay there doing the same jobs for years.

To me part of the respect of going to another country starts with at least speaking the language. Not an easy task, but let's show the effort. I have friends in both sides of the communities, both with their up and down sides. I could talk longer about pros and cons of each side, but let's keep focus, shall we?

It's like when an american comes to any Latin country. If the 'poor' guy doesn't speak spanish, he is literally screwed. There you go! It works both ways!!

That's the main reason (my humble opinion, and with no statistics to back me up), that Latin countries' honorable people choose Spain instead of the USA -> the language.

So, to conclude my humble comment: Let's make practice of our right of freedom of speech!!

Peace out!

Juliana

----------------

Message sponsored by putasalrojo.com

Posted by Juliana @ 06/29/2005 07:51 AM MEX

I know that this web site belong to Serge, but I take offense to this L'Ombre d'une vague and the references to Ecuadorians and Colombians. Yes, many South American immigrants are poor and illegal but they are not prostitutes. If they are, they were forced by economic circumstances to be one; I do not believe that any woman will want to do that because they like to be prostitutes.
Most of those Ecuadorian immigrants are peasants and some of them are also teachers, secretaries, etc in their country of origin but they were forced to immigrate due to the terrible economic situation. That is the same in the US, we have a lot of South American immigrants who were executives, nurses, teacher but now they work in factories or cleaning offices:. In the office that I used to work, the cleaning lady was an Advertising executive in Colombia and she was white!!. And just because, I was working as an analyst and she was a cleaning lady did not make her less in my eyes and I treated her as my equal because I see it this way, if I was not giving the opportunity to go to the University, I could easy be cleaning offices...the only difference with this lady was that she was a recent immigrant but she was already a professional in her country and she did not speak english. Actually, I have to say that two professional Colombians that used to work in the same office look down on her and I, an Ecuadorian, treated her with kindness and respect!!

Many of the Ecuadorian immigrants (mostly peasants) were given visas(and they are still getting them), because the Spanish government needs them to fill jobs that Spaniards do not want to do. It is the same in the US, most illegal immigrants are working in farms and in jobs that Americans do not want to do. So the Spanish government is not interested in opening its doors for professionals, they are only getting people that they need to work their farms therefore you will not see white ecuatorians..you will not see me(I am darker and I am a professional in the US). As a general rule, Colombians are white but they also have darker people after all we are talking about Latin America. We are all mixed!!. A family can have children that do not look alike; some are darker than the other. In my family, some of us are darker, some are whiter and there is nothing wrong with that!!

I am Ecuadorian and darker ( if you do not know, we are mestizos (spaniard blood and indian blood) but that does not make us less to white people. The majority of people in South America are mestizos with some exceptions...after all, before we had any white people there, most of the land belong to the Inca Empire!!

Lastly, I have been living in the US for 20 years and I have never heard Americans call mexicans Gabachos...they do use other words but I never heard that one. And Spaniards call all of us from South America "sudacas", it does not matter if you are white or dark, we are all sudacas in Spain!!

Posted by Carolina @ 06/28/2005 11:24 PM MEX

Juliana:

What a great post. A large percentage of the reasons why I visit this blog is to read your posts. You have always struck me as a very sensitive, smart and deep person. You have a way of conveying very deep and insightful thoughs in few words.

I hope that my post did not offend you. When I mentioned "prostitutes" I did not mean to include everyone (I realize that I did, I am sorry). I was only attempting to show how Spaniards see different types of immigrants. You are right, Colombians, Ecuadorians and also peruvians got a lot of free visas to Spain, and that attracted many people (and many "undesirable" people too). Most of the educated Colombians decided to stay in Colombia, running their companies, etc. I explained that the way Spaniards see those immigrants is the same as how Americans in the USA sees Mexicans. Because the US is much closer to Mexico than Spain, most of the uneducated immigrants from Mexico have gone there, and not to Spain. Incidentally, the white population in Colombia as a percentage is double that of Mexico.

My brother's wife is Colombian, from Cali. I have been to Colombia many times and is one of the countries that I admire the most. Colombians are true poets and huge scientists at the same time (they invented "Lasik" for God's sake! - I remember when everyone from around the workd was flying to Colombia to have eye surgery). The best Spanish in the world is still spoken in Colombia (and I would volunteer also in the Mexican highlands). Colombia has all the climates, such diverse riches and so many things that I could never stop mentioning. Unfortunately, our Latin American countries all share many of the same problems. Mexico is the biggest exporter of uneducated immigrants and drugs to the USA. Colombia is also (my Colombian sister-in-law told me) one of the biggest exporters of drugs, weapons and prostitutes. That only means that our two countries have had terrible governments for decades, which have allowed this to happen. But the soul of the countries, their people and culture are amazing. I will even say that if I had to pick between Mexico and Colombia for the most cultured, innovative, beautiful and diverse country I would pick Colombia with no hesitation.

I hope I did not offend you. Again, I usually try to lay unbiased objective information for others to judge. Please always tell me if you think I mis-spoke.

Have a great day.

L'ombre

Posted by L'Ombre d'un vague @ 06/27/2005 04:41 PM MEX

It is amazing how much I have learned from both the post of the blog and the later comment from L'Ombre d'une vague. I had to read them twice to keep the knowledge comming in - like in a pesero! Push it to the back and keep comming in! "Sube!!"

On a more 'defensive' side I have to say I have also learned a lot about the colombian prostitutes! What an insight! Being a colombian myself, graduated from Universidad de los Andes (top 3 universities of the country - The Best Uni in my heart), I had regret many times not migrating to Spain, where most of my friends and colleages move after our graduation, some are finishing their Master's and some starting their PhDs... I have never imagined the reputation of colombians in Spain. The spaniards friends I made at this side of the Atlantic, and the experiences I hear from my colombian artists' friends living in Spain, show no sign of "All colombians are poor and dark-skinned".

Now, I can see where this problem might be rooted. Back in the late 1990s and early 2000s, Spain opened the doors to colombians (and I believe Ecuadorians), visas were given as free-rice. I knew about it because my friends got their tickets to Europe in a beat... in search of new horizons and, where continue their education. Never knew about the other people who also went there with another perspective. Scary... You never know their stories. I had the opportunity to work on a project with prostitutes 'made at home', for a project with a non-profit. These people.. are people, you know?

I know this is very sideline from the original post, but as colombian it strikes me hard to hear things about my country (the one I also left)... I see the issue of being poor, but what is the problem with being dark? Living for some years near the Atlantic coast, and now the Gulf of Mexico, has made me deliciously tan during this summer. I love it! In Colombia and Ecuador you also see white caucasian population, but have to admit it might be in the same percentage than Mexico... Everything is just the way you want to see it, isn't it?

ok, no more personal stuff. I can get quite non-sense these days. But, I had fun writing this comment. So...

"Viva Méjico, Viva España y todas las putas de sus tierras!!! "

Posted by Juliana @ 06/27/2005 01:05 PM MEX

Serge:

Welcome back to this side of the pond. Your trip to Spain sounds fascinating and sounds like you might be experiencing a paradigm-shift. After all, you are visiting a Spanish-speaking country which is not part of the third world, which almost seems like an oxymoron.

My impression is that you are discovering both Mexico and Spain
"after the fact". What I mean is that as a European ex-pat you have arrived with fresh eyes, and unaware of all the changes that the two countries (and Latin America at large) have experienced in the past 2 decades. Mexico has always been at once a very americanized, but also a very "Hispanic" country (even though people love to deny it, Mexicans love bullfights, some consider Paella a Mexican dish and for sure churros, and we still refer to Spain (either with tenderness or just out of custom) as "The Motherland" (La Madre Patria). To analyze Mexico's (and Latin America's) relationship with Spain, you need to disect the relationship at various socio-economic levels. The tier that I belong to, for example, with my entire ancestry hailing from Catalonia and Italy sees Spaina s almost another true motherland. Much in the way that Greek Cypriots view Greece (They are truly part of "Greater Greece" even though they are a separate country). Other Mexicans will outright reject Spain as 'The invasors" demonstrating utter ignorance of history. Those are the same people who accepted without hesitation that the PRI in the 1940s started forcing all school children to write "Mexico" as opposed to the correct "Mejico" (Eventually, the Real Academia de la Lengua hd to agree that both Mexico and Mejico are acceptable, under such widespread usage, but that, and the fact that Mexico's independence and other early documents of the independent country spelled "Mejico" are another story)

The fact is that it is Spain, not Mexico or Latin America, which has changed, (changed utterly, like William Butler Yeats writes about Ireland, upon independence from Britain "changed, changed utterly...a terrible beauty is born" in his poem "Autumn 1914"

You evidently still view Spain as someone from England or France or Germany viewed Spain in the 70s and early 80s. In fact, the French used to say that "Africa started south of the Pyrenees". You call it "poor". I think you might still be holding to that old notion (such as Americans think that Mexico has no airports or cars or electricity sometimes). Spain is not poor anymore, and has one of the most dynamic economies in the EU. A proof of that is that in these past years Spain has stopped receiving EU subsidies for the poorer countries and is now one of the net contributors in subsidies to the new countries of expansion, notably Poland.

The Spain of the 80s and early 90s was still truly part of Iberoamerica. As you know, Iberoamerica is that cultural unity of Latin America, Spain and Portugal as one true entity. That used to be true believe it or not back then! I know this first-hand from having lots of family and friends there and from extensive travel. Spaniards would be more interested with the OTI 9The iberoamerican yearly music festival) than with Eurovisiob, which they now worship as all Europeans do that guilty pleasure. Spaniards have become too busy becoming European, and richer, less catholic, more liberal, farther and farther from Latin America which they now see as a backward society which feeds them all those Colombian and Ecuadorian prostitutes (you say "more or less legal"...they are illegal, my friend, plainly said) Spain used to be a true ally of Latin America, and yes, there are many, MANY Spanish immigrants in Mexico. Even the legitimate Spanish goverment governed from exile in Mexico (My dad once had to go to the Spanish embassy in Mexico City and they told him "Oh no, you mean the OTHER Embassy!"...things have now changed.

I will add, though, to your interesting point about comparing Mexico's relationship with the USA vs. Spain. In the USA most of the MExican immigrants come from rural areas and have little schooling, therefore the image Americans have of Mexico is of a backward poor society of mestizo or indian-looking illiterate people. In Spain, they know Mexicans from the well off white caucasian travelers that throng to Madrid's Corte Ingles every summer and winter, and therefore if you ask any Spaniard they will tell you "Colombians and Ecuadoreans are poor and dark-skinned", "Mexicans are rich and white". Yes, we have 10 million caucasian people in Mexico, but that is only 9% of the population!

Some weird facts remain.
Spaniards love Mexican soap operas, just like everyone seesm to do! (I even saw a trashy "Rosa Salvaje" playing in Germany once, with Veronica Castro! "Die Wilde Rose"!), Mexicans love Spanish groups and bullfighters, Spaniards love Mexican TV, music, etc. Yet, the gap is wider than ever, Spain is now "European" and like their president Zapatero said "We have turned our back on Latin America and Morocco, which is like a mother abandoning their kids, to join a club where we are seen as the maids"...and they are! All those Spanish maids in Germany and Britain don't lie!

Spaniards call France "El vecino pais" and Frenchmen they call "gabachos". In Mexico we call the USA "El vecino pais" and Americans "Gabachos". Mexico retains (at some socioeconomic levels) the best of what Spain used to be, and Spain in the mean time continues to lose their identity at such speed that one of the "El Pais" most important editors wrote last September "After all these recent changes of the recent years, A Espana no la reconocera ni la madre que la pario"

Posted by L'Ombre d'une vague @ 06/26/2005 07:41 PM MEX

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